Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Show Me The Perks. I’m your host Kim Bigg and today we’re interviewing Christos Tsonis, founder and director of CXT Legal.
Christos is a corporate and M&A lawyer who advises founders, boards and investors on acquisitions, exits, restructures and complex private market transactions. Over more than a decade, he spent his career at the deal table, guiding clients through some of the most critical moments in their business lives, including growth transactions, distressed deals and shareholder transitions.
In 2023, Christos was awarded the National Lawyers Weekly Corporate Partner of the Year, winning from a highly credentialed field of top tier partners, many of them from the Eastern Seaboard. Today’s conversation draws on that experience, looking at what Christos has learned from advising business owners through major decisions, whilst also building and leading a specialist transactions law practice. Welcome, Christos.
Kim, thanks for having me and you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel, I think if you’ve got people like me on the podcast, but thanks very much. Not at all, Christos. Really great to have you. I’ve obviously known you for a long period of time.
Likewise.
to when we went to school together many, many years ago. We won’t say how many, so the listeners don’t know exactly how old we are. But really pleasing. We’ve done a lot of ⁓ mutual work together over the years, and that’s been fantastic. And I’ve watched on with admiration from a distance the effort required to…start a law firm from scratch like you have. I went to your 10-year anniversary last year, 10-year anniversary of CXT legal starting.
And that was just so wonderful to see how your firm has evolved and met the demands of the M&A and commercial transactions field in Adelaide, South Australia, but also across the country of Australia.
Yeah, great to have you on board, Christos.
I’ll throw it to you now just to give a little bit more information about yourself, just so the listeners can get a good feel for what is CXT legal and a bit of background about yourself and your career so far.
Thanks Kim. I guess number one thing with me is I’m a father of three. ⁓ Three kids who are very much a focus for me at this point in my life.
Also married to Stacey who has been just pivotal to everything that I’ve done ⁓ in my life including establishing the firm ⁓ and a great debt of gratitude to her. Look I think you mentioned it like I’ve been pretty relationship focused basically for my whole life. Setting up the firm, I’m a lawyer M&A corporate by trait. I had a really really good ⁓
training ground, suppose, like through my time in the firm that preceded me. I’ll speak more about that, I suppose, on the podcast. Look, critically speaking, I’ve been able to be at the inflection points of a lot of clients and the most pivotal moments of their life. That’s what the privilege is of being an M&A lawyer. ⁓ People do transactions all the time, commercial transactions in their business, but to sell or to bring new shareholders on or things of that nature or to exit. These are highly emotive, are sometimes existential periods in people’s lives.
So to sit there at the deal table with them and to have built the business alongside of that and to learn from them as well as well as being a trusted advisor for me, that has been an enormous privilege.
But yeah, in terms of my background, 10 years at a very, very good national firm and 10 years plus one now at CXT. So it’s just been a great journey and it was nice to be recognised by my colleagues as a core corporate law partner of the year over in Sydney. I didn’t even attend, was on a holiday and I didn’t think I was gonna win. And I won, so someone else picked up the trophy for me.
There you go.
But I haven’t won since.
There you go. Fantastic, well, I think you’re doing the right thing by having a holiday and having a well-earned break to refresh for the next deal that comes along. And you’re quite right, a lot of our listeners are, these are Perks clients and SME businesses out there, they spend their whole lives creating businesses and then…you know, there’s like it or not, there can tend to be one, you know, intricate period of their lives where they’ve got to try to work out either a succession or an exit or the next phase of the business’s life. And having someone alongside of them to guide them through is so critical. And I think we, people who are building businesses probably don’t think about that on the way through on the journey upwards. And then they get to the point where they need to take the next step and it is a highly emotive time for them. So I’ll jump into some of the questions interested in your feedback on M&A and how you’ve grown.
First question, from your start as a commercial and transactions lawyer with an M&A specialty, I should say mergers and acquisitions for all those listening, did you always want to start your own law firm? I knew from your time with your previous national law firm. Did you always want to start your own firm? And what was the spark that, you know, the moment that you knew you wanted to start your own law firm?
Yeah, it’s a great question. ⁓ In the early beginnings, I just wanted to learn and I was ⁓ in a really great environment. ⁓
I think I speak with reverence about my time at Kain Lawyers ⁓ that I spent 10 years with and they’re an outstanding firm in their own right. We see them as collaborators in the market. They’re doing some great things in the market as well. And I’ve had a deep reverence to them and I feel enormous privilege for having played a part in their journey as well. But, you know, look, I’ve always wanted a front row seat at the deal table. And I’ll tell you why, because I’m a pretty human-centric person and I mean we went to school and it’s a very Adelaide thing to say but you want to be at the nucleus of decisions. And I always felt in early age, I was into debating, mooting and all the rest of that type of stuff as well. I found it really interesting to have conversations with people ⁓ and to be front end of those conversations. And for me, like, I say this with a lot of ⁓ humility, I suppose, like, when you’re at the front row of the deal table, you’re having conversations with ⁓ founders or instructors. And these are real decisions and they have consequences to them. They’ve got rights, they’ve got consequences. And ⁓ I just felt like through the learnings that I had when I was with my previous firm, ⁓ the time was right for me to be advocating, I suppose, ⁓ those points. And a lot of that privilege I have is the learning and the nurturing that I was provided my previous firm.
Absolutely, yeah, you’re quite right. M&A transactions, inevitably you’re taking a very meaningful role in the decisions that people are making. So just to give me a bit more information on the start, what were the early influences on your career? I know a little bit about…your time at Kain’s. But yeah, I’d be keen to understand what were the early influences on your career and your start in CXT legal? Yeah, I can’t start without mentioning John Kain, who was the founder, who founder of Kain Lawyers. Yeah, Michael Gary ⁓ is now running the shop there and he’s outstanding lawyer and doing a great job. Like, think anyone will agree with you on that one. But but John was very much my mentor from from day one. ⁓
And, you know, yes, it was a different time, but you know, with the ⁓ new young accounts or anyone that’s young in professional services, very quickly you’ll distill with those that really take a keen interest in the business as well. So John saw that in me, I suppose, took me under his wing, taught me that there were really three elements of professional services, businesses as you’re building them, your ability to win the work, which was a market facing discipline, your ability to do the work, get the technical detail right. Like that’s super important, obviously, and we’re having all these conversations around AI and things of that nature, which are helping us. We’ll speak about that later if that’s a question you want to ask me, But also, I think ensuring that you deliver values to the clients, these value and results in them paying, but seeing an outcome.
that’s important. And that was I think that’s the element of professional services that I did a lot of learning from John on and our time at Kain’s as we were building and really successfully because that’s something that I don’t teach you at law school. And he was an enormous influence on me. I had a lot of really good lawyers that were at the tail end of their career that were really, really kind with their time. Dean Davies, a former partner of Mr. Ellison sat in a room with him. And I just what I’d say to the younger people this
is like you just, become a, you should become a bit of a mob for them, like ask them questions, what were your experiences here? How did you deal with those situations? So I spent a lot of time doing that in the early beginnings and I think it really formed a really strong foundation in terms that I was able to spread my wings at 32.
Absolutely, no, I have had a little bit to do with John Kain over the years as well and I’m sure he emphasised the trust and client relationships and those three things as well, which is excellent. I’m sure that’s been a big part of CXT’s DNA going forward as well.
Give me some examples of some of the early challenges. So this is 2015, you’ve started CXT Legal, you’re out on your own. Talk me through it, give me, what are we talking here? You open up an office in Unley, put a shingle out the front and say, I’m here to start working. Describe the early days and some examples of the early challenges you’ve faced.
I hope people that are in professional services that are listening to this really take note of this because be brave and understand that there’s never a really good time. Kim, I had two kids under five and then Stacey unexpectedly, she’s pregnant again. I’m like, oh.
You handed in resignation and went and started a new job.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And on good terms too, right? But like, it’s just, it was, I just remember thinking, well, you know, if, if, if I’m ever gonna do it and I’m gonna be as unprepared as I could possibly be, that’s the case. Now, when I say I wasn’t unprepared, like I was always, I’ve always been a bit of a strategist in terms of what does a business plan look like? What does modeling look like? What is my plans? Do this, this, this. That was all fine. But the other side was just it’s life. And ⁓ it just had to, it just had to work. Like those three bucks we talk about, win the work, do the work, get paid. Like it just had to work because, you know, Stacey had
And I say this quite openly, I said this at our 10 year show as well. She made the decision that she was going to be the one that was going to put 110 % emphasis on the kids. I think if the roles were reversed, she would have had a far greater career than me. And I’ve always held that view and I’m very grateful to have her in the business as well. But I feel, okay, well, if I’m the one that’s going to prosecute this for myself and the family, it has to work. So it’s a bit like jumping out of the plane without a parachute.
However, what are the challenges? No brand, no money.
And no one to blame but yourself. that’s, that’s, that’s the one thing like you can’t say like the buck stops with you. So if you ask me, they’re the greatest challenges. So immediately, I had to work out on very quickly building the brand which is CXT, which is my personality, obviously, but what we could deliver. We had to get some money in the door. So it was value proposition, and I suppose leveraging my skills. But most importantly, taking responsibility, insane with buck stops with me. ⁓ And that was me moving into that space. And look, that takes a bit of courage, but ⁓ I think everyone does that every day. But certainly for me, I felt I didn’t have a safety net around me and it just had to work. And when it has to work, it has to work. It’s just sheer determination, you make sure it works. ⁓
You’ve done more than make it work. It’s been a great success. Tell me as well, I know early on that you had a really good first major win. And I know because it was in, it was publicised at the time. ⁓ Tell me about some of your early wins. I’d love to hear them. And I think given the challenges you just talk about there, know, no money, no brands, you know, knowing to blame it yourself, how did getting the first big win, how did that feel? And for all those people who are contemplating starting a business like this, ⁓ what’s it like to get your first win and just feel the feeling that comes with it? It’s wonderful, you should celebrate it, but you don’t have very much, you don’t have very long to celebrate it because then you’re on, okay, we’ve got to deliver. ⁓
It was the cloud deal. So it was a sale to Telstra. So obviously Telstra, our ASX company, engaged. And this was, I think, a $40 million business or something?
That’s what’s been published.
That’s what publicised. I’ve always kept confidentiality on that. yeah, no, but that’s what they publicised. look, the founders, it was an enormous privilege to act for that founder group. ⁓
We talk about deep reverence, right? Deep reverence to my time at Kain’s. ⁓ If they ever listen to this podcast, they recognise ⁓ how profound they have been, and they’ll never admit this. And the best people often don’t, Kim, but in a way they mentored me because they realised that I had a skillset that was able to deliver. I was very proud to deliver for them. But I learned a lot about how they treated their staff and their shareholders. I learned a lot about the way that they approach business. I learnt most importantly when times get tough how they didn’t throw the baby out with a bath water and that in itself is a rarity in commerce. You know look the history shows that we delivered it. What did we have to do internally Kim? We had to go and employ people so I had to have conviction that I could go and employ people, brought a consultant in hired two employees both on part-time basis and history shows that we delivered it and set the firm up and you’ve applied a lot of those same logic to yourself at CXT Legal, obviously getting through to the 10-year anniversary last year. So with that in mind, and there’s a good segue there in terms of some of the resilience needed, you’ve obviously made it through to 11 years. Tell me about what’s required, mostly from a personal mindset here. I mean, I know this is deviating away from running a business to some extent, but I know there’d be a lot of listeners who think through like what you talk about, the relentlessness of it. You have your win, you have a nice bottle of wine that night when you go home, and then you’re back into it the next day working and cracking into it. What does it feel like year in, year out to keep pursuing such a determined attitude?
It’s a really good question because you get to, like a lot of us in professional services, you get to December and you’re exhausted and then to reset the mentality in January coming back when things are a bit slower. I mean, things have really taken off now. I think we can all agree that.
I think you need two things. I think you need persistence and conviction. I’ve always had those two things in my mind, you need to be able to keep going, but you need something at the end of the day that you really believe in. And I mean, I believe in nothing more outside of my family and obviously my wife, I believe in nothing more than our business and the clients that we service and the team like it’s just such a important construct for me to be able to wake up and and do those things as well but those two things combined they will get you through any scenario and they allow you to have that consistency as well look you were at our 10-year show that was a bit of bit of fun by the way down at down in the old Fugazi
There you go a shout out to those guys are pretty good um but you know I guess in the tailoring your question about persistence and conviction, you need to focus. And one of the things I learned pretty early on is you can’t be a generalist practice these days. Well, you can, but I’m finding increasingly more when people want to do something really well and they value it, they want people that are doing this stuff routinely. And I think that’s why we wanted to make sure that we were focused around the private market M&A. We didn’t want to be everything to everyone. There’s a lot of good public firms out there that do public and private M&A, but we have had a heavily waiting on founder led exits, explaining concepts to people that haven’t done it before, but you’re dealing with big money around the deal table, right? So explain to people what market positions are and things like that.
That’s when you can get all of the advisors all correlated together. it’s a bit of a long window way of kind of explaining that, but persistence and conviction and a focus on a particular service. And when you stick to that, you stick to meaningful transactions, you know, at the front of the decision table, against people as opposed to a government sale of Telstra or whatever else may happen in those ones inevitably it’s not quite the same level of emotion that’s coming through there you you’ve been by sticking with private M&A you are sticking with people who are very much you’re talking face to face with those who are making the deals and working with them to get the best result so highly yeah
Obviously a very, very successful way to do it and also just very rewarding as well at the end of the day.
It’s a good segue onto what has made CXT successful. So for the last 10 years, you referenced there to, and I think you’re right, increasingly in professional services, both in accounting as well as law and probably other ones as well, people are becoming more specialised so that people go to specialist, whether it be a specialist accountant or whether it be a specialist transactions lawyer, they’re looking for someone who is the expert in their field.
Is that a key part of what’s made you successful? You’ve stuck to what you’re really good at and just honed in on it.
Yeah, I think so. I think so, Kim. I think the other element to it is the emphasis that we’ve never let go on having the right people around the table.
The relentless pursuit of having a brand so that people understand what you stand for is good because you will self-select out certain people and certain clients that don’t fit the profile. And I say that respectfully because that’s the right thing to do for them as well because it might not be a good fit as well.
We might not be a good fit for everyone. I think the best thing you can do for a client is actually make sure that they have a right fit, you know? And I say this as well, like, I mean, we’ve made a call internally that we don’t do public listings. Like, it would be great. Public listings are very technical. are a lot of really good people to ⁓ do that work.
I’ve been involved in public listings and things so we’ve been very very clear about what we do and what we don’t do and that’s gone into the training of the team as well but our people like ⁓ our people are so important.
And I guess I have this utopian view about the team that we have. I mean, we’ve got a senior associate, Daniel Settimio, whom I’m going to go to Sydney with him very soon. I’ve mentored him since admission. He’s 30 under 30, Lawyers Weekly. He’s in a field against these fantastic lawyers from interstate. The enormous pride I have seeing lawyers develop that are better than me. Kevin Cheung has come across from Linklaters in Hong Kong, wants to work in a good firm with some good people, like technically proficient, has done transactions that far exceed what I’ve ever seen in the market as well, and as modest as you come. We’ve been able to build a high performing team around and like I’ve got so much comfort knowing that I’ve got a team around me now that are better than me and hopefully they keep me around. And they’ve bought into the vision ultimately and you’re right.
You can’t just grab anyone to come into your team when you’re to have a whole business model coming off the back of client relationships and trusted relationships. You’ve clearly got a few staff members that have come in like Daniel and Kevin who, you know, they’ve bought into your vision. They’re engaged in what you’re building, which makes all the difference. So further to that, mean, trusted relationships with clients as well as you as the people in your team as well. How important is having, you know, building the relationship with clientele to you in terms of how you go about a deal and how you, you know, ultimately how you create value for the client, which is one of the three things that work so well, is you’ve to create value so that ultimately they’re they’re happy to pay for the value. How do you go about building the relationship?
It’s a good question. ⁓ I suppose the way I’d answer it is by saying that…it’s really, really important for us to connect with a client on a emotional level, because I think inherently, like the human element of transactions are that like people do get emotional because you do, you are at cross purposes on certain points and it’s really, really important to have empathy and I think emotional intelligence. We hear that word a lot, but to know when to be a counselor, to know when to advocate for them strongly and with conviction. ⁓ And sometimes, mean, most of the other firms that we come across, and I’m gonna give them shout outs right now, ⁓ Laity Morrow, ⁓ HWL Ebsworth, Kain’s, ⁓ in town, there’s plenty of them. People will say, these guys are your competitors. No, they’re not. They’re people that come up against us on the other side. They’re excellent, they’re fantastic law firms that if we see them across the other side of we say, absolutely fantastic.
We’ve got people that are really, really smart, what they do, we’re gonna, obviously we’re gonna have different positions on certain things, but we’re gonna work together in a way to achieve an outcome. ⁓ again, to answer your question, ⁓ the building of the relationships is not only with the client and having that emotional connection, I think, it’s having a strategic connection and alignment. It’s making sure that we can… all speak the same language of the advisory team. it’s that project management as well, but a genuine relationship build, okay, well, what does our team look like and how we can work from there as well. And the thing that I think validates all of that is when the deal was settled and they ring you up and say, was fun, let’s do another one.
That’s the way that you build networks.
Constructive relations.
That’s the greatest thing. That’s the greatest privilege that I ever saw. We set up CXT, we had zero clients. And then something happens and then the greatest thing that they can possibly do is over lunch or in a boardroom advocate for us. Because someone says, you exited a business, I’m about to go through the same process. Who do you trust? And then they say, well, CXT for these reasons. That is the best thing that we can possibly have. And that’s certainly how we’ve built our brand.
And I think there’s a good lesson there for any business for that matter in terms of building trust, which then leads to referrals, which then is a self-fulfilling and then you build your business on from there. The moment people can’t trust what your value is and whether you can produce an outcome, then it becomes really hard. You’re in for a grind. Further point relating to just this is a little bit…sort of tied to the intricacies of the legal industry. So I’ll ask you not to go into all the specifics of legal, technical legal. We’re obviously seeing a lot of AI come through, artificial intelligence come through in various businesses, accounting included, but there’d also be some across, know, manufacturing, construction, there’s farmers, everyone’s contemplating what does AI mean for them.
Give us an indication perhaps of what AI means for CXT to some extent, but also the industry in general. What do you see trending in the industry?
Look, we’re very interested in AI, but ⁓ you know…just calling this out, I think a lot of people in professional services now are professing themselves to be AI experts. ⁓ This is the AI gold rush. And I think this can just be taken as a comment that there’s lots of people that are creating these AI processes to serve as particular niches in professional services. And everyone’s rushing to the gold rush and the people that are making the money are selling the shovels.
So as opposed to the ones collecting the gold.
Correct. Well, that gold’s gone up a bit more recently. It’s got to be a silver. By the time this is on, it’s probably it’s going to drop. It’s The point I make is this is really simple. Like AI, we’ve done papers on this. We’ve got a project commission internally called Project Olympus. Everything’s got to do with great gods and things in our business. But the point we make is at the end of the day,
We have selected particular products within our business that we’re now rolling out to our team. We started that process at least 18 months ago. ⁓ We are very, very open to how it looks, but it’s more an efficiency tool for us rather than a complete solve because we think it’s going to add ⁓ speed ⁓ and it’s going to help with some of the manual work. But our conviction at the end of the day is eventually it’s going to get so good that, you know, it’s going to solve a lot of problems and things like that. But the point that
nexus at end of the day is always going to be a human interaction because what people want to know at the end of the day is what is your advice? What do you think I should do in these circumstances? And that requires, I think, experience and a human element. And ⁓ we are cognizant of that. We’re also cognizant of understanding the law behind it as well, because at the end of the day, I have seen and it will get better, but I have seen products and I think there’s a while to go on it and it’s going to get really, really quick, really, really quickly. ⁓ But it’s more an efficiency tool in our view to deliver value to the client at the billing table ⁓ than anything else at the moment.
Absolutely. And I think your point’s very valid. You’re still, it’s still a human interaction. There’s still a trusted client relationship that needs to be built. ⁓ And ultimately you’ve got to advise. And that’s the big part. You know, it’s a, people go to lawyers to get advice, not to, to get a series of what ifs or what they might be able to do. They want advice, which is just something that CXT does successfully. ⁓ Right, moving on to probably the last question for today and before we come through to the closing section.
Just an advice, so we would have a lot of business owners listening to this podcast from a variety of fields. What advice do you have for other aspiring business owners, people who might be thinking about going out into business on their own? And also second question to go with it, if you could go back to 2015 when you started, would you do anything different? What would you tell yourself if this was 2015? Go and buy some Bitcoin perhaps.
I would say ⁓ get very, very good at what you do and treat people well and the rest takes care of itself. And that’s not, that is not a pre-prepared question. think like, just disclaimer, I’ve taken that on notice, but that’s, if I could distill it, I would say that as well. But I would also say that there’s an element that you need to consider when you’re building a business that sits outside of like, it’s business centric and it’s family group centric as well. And I think those two things are important to put together. And I got a bit of sage advice around that time that I followed through.
It’s manifested in our business and it’s also manifested in our personal lives and I think I was very, very proud that like, know, Stacey and I came from not having much and, you know, it’s…it’s been wonderful and it’s profound for us as well. It’s the concept of spending less than you earn and borrowing less than you can afford. And I think ⁓ that’s a really, really important thing because we all go through economic cycles. We can’t predict the future. Interest rates go up, interest rates go down as well. if you can do those things as well and you can add…add some coin asides, some investments and all, and focus on your craft, the rest takes care of itself and it literally takes care of itself. So look, that’s the things that I think I’ve learned over the journey. I love speaking to younger lawyers that are thinking about things in life as well, younger people in professional services generally. There’s a lot of white noise out there, Kim, and I love telling them things that like time, and being methodical and just having consistency will result in compounding and that just looks after everything. And one other thing that I do right now, and I wish I did in 2015 more, is when I settle a deal with a client that is like founder led exit and they’re in their 60s or 70s, I take them out to dinner, just on one-on-one. And I say to them like, what do think I should do? And they all say the same thing is like, you you just, you just listen to people that have done it before and you pick their brains on it. And the consistency that comes back all in the messaging that I just gave you right there. That’s what they all say. And they will say, just hang out with your family a lot more. I think we should do that a bit more.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And back the cats as well. That’s the other thing we should do.
Absolutely. There’s a good segue there to finish off. yeah, look, congratulations, Christos. You’ve built an amazing business. You’ve built an amazing family. You’ve transitioned from a Crows supporter to a Geelong supporter. So I’ve got a lot of credit to give to you for that decision. That was clearly a, it’s clearly been more successful than staying as a Crows supporter over the last few years as well. um, Crows support. So well done for that as well. So we’ll close out there.
Uh, final message for the listeners. If you’re a founder, a shareholder or a business owner, and you’re facing a major decision, I hope today’s conversation has given you some insight into how those moments should be approached.
from the advisors side of the table. If this conversation with Christos has resonated with you and you would like to reach out for further discussions, please do so. Both Christos and I are happy to chat and continue the conversation with more entrepreneurs and business owners on their journey.
You’ve said a nice lot of nice things about me, Kim, but I reciprocate a lot of the kind comments I’ve known you for a very long time. What you have achieved with Perks. I mean, you say that I’ve been brave to build a business. ⁓ People are brave in any ⁓ construct. So what you have done is you’ve come into ⁓ a very, very successful firm. And there’s two parts you go and set your own business up or you help existing organisation evolve and change and form part of that leadership as well and you’ve done that very very well. So look I can say it’s been an enormous privilege to be at the Deal Table with you and any time that I’ve been on a transaction with you let me tell you it has been just just wonderful. So thank you very much and I think your listeners those that do work with Kim are very very lucky indeed. Thanks Christos for the kind words.
Appreciate being able to call you a colleague and a friend.
Thank you for tuning in. We’ll see you next time on Show Me The Perks. And thank you, Christos.
